The Podcast Host's Colin Gray on SEO, Affiliate Marketing, Audience Growth, and Digital Products

[00:00:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It was about two years in, so probably 2012, 2013, I got a check through from Amazon for 50 bucks. And it was the first ever money I'd made online. And it's like light bulb moment, obviously, as a lot of people talk about, like, oh, this actually could work.

[00:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I started writing more articles about gear, about software, but stuff like that. And it just started growing. And really, that was the core of the kind of motivation to turn into a real business by 2015.

[00:00:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was 2015, that revenue had got up to a few thousand a month.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: What up, potty people? And welcome back to Clipped. As always, I'm Eric, your host. And Clipped brings you the tips, resources, and people to help crush your online content goals.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Today, I'm speaking with Colin Gray. He's the founder of The Podcast Host. And if you've been looking up podcast stuff online, no doubt you've come across The Podcast Host, one of the heavy hitters in the podcast space.

[00:01:02] [SPEAKER_00]: He runs that as a blog. He also hosts a podcast called PodCraft, where he teaches people like you about podcasting.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: So buckle up for this conversation with Colin, and I hope you enjoy.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Colin, welcome to the show.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, thanks for having me.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, man, I'm stoked to talk to you. I've been following you for a while and your content.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And this is a question I ask everybody, but where are you originally from?

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I was born and grew up in Scotland, just at the top of the UK.

[00:01:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I've been here most of my life, but I've been away to a few different places over the years.

[00:01:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I lived in Australia for a year, lived in New Zealand for a year, Ireland for a few years.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So been around a bit, but yeah, Scotland originally.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, Scotland, that makes sense.

[00:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think I did see you on Instagram with your family.

[00:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, yeah, I think it was New Zealand. Was that like a couple of years ago? Relatively recently, right?

[00:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I think I saw that.

[00:02:11] [SPEAKER_01]: That was during the pandemic chaos, actually.

[00:02:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We managed to escape to Australia for a year. It was all kind of pre-planned, but it just happened to cross over.

[00:02:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So we were over there during 2021.

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Very cool, man. Yeah.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I find that people from the UK and or Europe tend to travel abroad more than Americans.

[00:02:30] [SPEAKER_00]: So very cool, especially to be able to do that with family.

[00:02:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Like at some point, that's one of my goals to, whether it's abroad or somewhere else within the US, to kind of experience that as a family.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_00]: That's cool, man.

[00:02:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really cool, actually.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's quite a luxury, obviously, a privilege to get to travel for more than, you know, just a standard week-long holiday with your family.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, we got the chance to go for, yeah, for a year to Australia and then about a month and a bit to New Zealand, which was really cool.

[00:02:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And obviously it's not all perfect.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, you're stuck with your children in a house for traveling for a month at a time.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Can get slightly fraught, but mostly it was actually just, yeah, great.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It was lucky to get to do it.

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: How old are your kids?

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_01]: They are 9 and 12, so pretty young.

[00:03:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.

[00:03:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, but old enough to do that.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, mine are 2 and under, so it's a little.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just absolutely insane every morning in the house.

[00:03:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, cool, man.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so it gets me to wonder, like, what I consider abroad.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_00]: For you, I could be abroad, like you had mentioned when we were offline.

[00:03:36] [SPEAKER_00]: But what's it like being in the podcast industry and not being in the U.S., kind of being like one of the heavy players, but being elsewhere?

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, what's that like?

[00:03:48] [SPEAKER_00]: It's changed a lot over the years, actually.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And right then, there was no other blogs, really, around doing podcasting, whether it was UK, U.S., or anywhere else in the world.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: There was a few good podcast teachers around.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So, like, when I started, you had people like Dave Jackson.

[00:04:31] [SPEAKER_01]: You had Cliff Ravenscraft, who doesn't really do it anymore as well.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But there's a few people around like that, but nobody else writing about it.

[00:04:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So, it was quite cool in the way that I felt like I was the only person writing about it.

[00:04:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And so, we grew a decent reputation back then, whether, you know, we were UK or not.

[00:04:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So, that was quite good.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But then, over the following years, I did have to, when I started to professionalize, like, when it turned from a hobby into a business,

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of, I did have to head out to the U.S. a fair bit.

[00:05:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I had to come over to your side of the pond for, like, conferences.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_01]: The only events in podcasting, really, were over in the U.S.

[00:05:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Although, there were a couple of cool ones.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: There was one run by a couple called Mike and Isabella, Music Radio Creative over here, New Media Europe, which was really cool.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But, yeah, you're right.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It was, like, definitely U.S. focused.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I go to a lot of U.S. events.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: But, as I said, it's changed a lot over the years.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Because in the last few years, there's a lot more U.K. companies.

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a lot more European podcasting going on as well.

[00:05:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then, you've got the podcast show in London, which is actually attracting a lot of U.S. companies, a lot of influencers in our space.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So, it's evening out a bit, I would suggest.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But, certainly, there's a lot more going in the U.S. still than there is over this way.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:05:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I can imagine, in the early days, it would probably be interesting to kind of want to, like, for lack of a better term, like, prove yourself to, like, the U.S. market.

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But, you've definitely done that.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And speaking of – it's called the – what is it called?

[00:06:06] [SPEAKER_00]: The London show?

[00:06:07] [SPEAKER_00]: The big one in London?

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: The conference?

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, they just call it the podcast show.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:06:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that – I've been wanting to make it out there at some point.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, it is a trek.

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But I've heard really good things.

[00:06:18] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard even that that's, like, the best one as opposed to, like, Podfest or podcast movement.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So, that's definitely on my radar at some point.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_00]: So, the podcast host, did you say 2010?

[00:06:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: First post went up in 2010.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes.

[00:06:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And prior to that, you said you were kind of already involved in podcasting.

[00:06:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But, like, did you have, just in your professional career, like, a writing background or an SEO?

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, were you website tech savvy?

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, how did that even come about?

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, thinking to start a blog.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're right.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_00]: It was early.

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's still, like, one of the dominant voices.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, thanks.

[00:06:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I did.

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: I had a bit of an advantage there in that my – so, my degree was in multimedia and interactive systems,

[00:07:05] [SPEAKER_01]: which is a fancy way of saying playing around with computers and making stuff.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_01]: One of which was making websites, but also doing animation, video, all that kind of stuff.

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I had a bit of education there.

[00:07:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I was also just a bit of a nerdy kid.

[00:07:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I did a lot of coding and stuff as a kid.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was building HTML websites as my higher project at school.

[00:07:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Dating myself a bit here, but that was, like, 95, 96.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I mean, building websites in the very early days, I suppose, of HTML.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, not very early days, but, you know, early in the commercial internet, at least.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I had a bit of an advantage there.

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So, by the time it came to – yeah, what was it, 2008 or 2009 when I was starting to play around with it,

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I knew how to build a website.

[00:07:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I was good with WordPress.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I'd build WordPress websites for other people on a freelance basis.

[00:07:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So, that was kind of where I came from with it.

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But the writing probably came from the fact that I was an educator.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I worked at a university, trained teacher at a university.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I was teaching people how to use tech to teach.

[00:08:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And a big part of that was obviously having to do a lot of written material, present as well.

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So, I think there was a bunch of skills there came together that kind of got me into it.

[00:08:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what was your path into it, Eric, just out of interest?

[00:08:19] [SPEAKER_00]: My path into it was – so, I'd been in audio my whole life, really, like playing in bands and stuff.

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:08:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And then working in recording studios.

[00:08:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And then when I finally decided to launch like a podcast production company, I had some guy I paid maybe like $1,000 to build me a website.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And then like a year and a half later, I was like, dude, like how did – how am I going to get clients?

[00:08:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like how am I going to get people to see the website and see what I have to offer?

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I started doing more research and I was like, oh, so if you add content, aka written content like a blog, quote unquote, you can start to rank within Google.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Then you get more eyes on the website.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_00]: If people are typing in search terms related to your blog, you know, you're more likely to come up towards the top of Google search.

[00:09:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I was like, all right, well, maybe I got to start doing that.

[00:09:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And so, I started writing articles in the beginning like very short.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought writing like a 500-word like post was like – it was so grueling to me.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_00]: And then slowly that just kind of – it was like really slow the transition for that to develop.

[00:09:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And slowly like I started writing more and I didn't even really know what Google Analytics was.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: And then one day I made an account like a year or two later and I saw, oh, like a couple dozen people each week, very small, a couple dozen maybe were finding the website.

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: And I was like, oh, so this is what I got to do.

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Started writing more articles, getting more traffic, thus kind of getting more leads or people inquiring about my business and stuff.

[00:09:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's really how it started, man.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_00]: And then slowly I learned about like keyword research like Ahrefs or SEMrush and kind of dug more into it.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I learned about like affiliate.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, if I'm writing about audio equipment, I could put a link to an Amazon, the microphone on Amazon and maybe make a little money.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But it was all very organic for me.

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_00]: My background was more music and audio production.

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And so the SEO thing, I feel like I'm still maybe not a novice, maybe like intermediate, still have a lot to learn, but I've kind of at least got the keyword part down.

[00:10:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It changes so often that it's impossible to be anything but a novice.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: People who claim to be experts are just like a day ahead and learning from the non-experts essentially.

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think you're spot on there.

[00:10:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Like that whole, it's one of the things that I talk to podcasters most often when it comes to growth.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the combination of written plus audio material.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_01]: So many podcasters hate to write.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's understandable.

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: It is.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, it's difficult.

[00:10:50] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not what we get into this for, is it?

[00:10:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We want to talk.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But that was like the secret to us in the early days was having all those written materials alongside the podcasts.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_01]: People find the written material via Google search.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's still the most common search method, still the highest volume search method.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So people find you that way.

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But then it's a magic combo when they then see you've got podcast episodes embedded into these written articles because they read through, get a sense of you.

[00:11:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they actually listen to the episode.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They're hooked in by that material to listen to the episode.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's what drops them into your whole ecosystem because they get to know you so well then.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So I love that combo.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's so underused as well, that written content.

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So many podcasters don't do it.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: No, you're absolutely right.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: The combo is huge.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And I actually, the website, my website gets way more traffic than podcast downloads.

[00:11:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Like I personally think it's easier to get more traffic, more eyeballs on a website than it is a podcast.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: That's just my experience.

[00:11:53] [SPEAKER_00]: And like you said with the combo, people don't want to do it because like you said, they're creatives and they just want to talk.

[00:12:00] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think with all like the repurposing tools now and the trends to like, you know, you repurpose the episode into a blog or you can use AI to kind of get the baseline idea and tweak it and then edit.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_00]: But you're right.

[00:12:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I think for anyone listening, I know you want to be a podcaster or a YouTuber, create online video audio content, but there's still something to be said for the written content.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But that being said, how has, and for our audience, there's been for lack of tech talk, maybe Colin can explain it more, but over the last like year, six months, there's been all these Google updates where they're kind of cracking down on AI and Google core updates.

[00:12:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Did you, did your traffic, mine took a hit?

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Did yours take a hit or how have you been dealing with those Google updates the last year or so?

[00:12:48] [SPEAKER_00]: There's been a lot, hasn't there?

[00:12:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God, it's unbelievable.

[00:12:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We, yeah, we certainly saw some traffic differences.

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, we dropped a bit.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We were definitely not in the bad portion of the hits.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Like some people that we know, it's really frustrating because like there's people that I know quite well that have put so much blood and sweat and tears into their content, like really helpful content, really knowledgeable, good content, just like we do as well.

[00:13:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Just like I'm sure you do, Eric.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And they're like decimated.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: They're, you know, like 90% less traffic, go from 100,000 a month to 10,000 a month.

[00:13:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's just brutal.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it destroys businesses, destroys livelihoods.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's horrible.

[00:13:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And we certainly weren't hit that much.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We were maybe at 10, 20, 30% hit at some points.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of gone back up at points and we're doing okay just now, but are you similar?

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Is that your experience?

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I would say mine was closer to like 50% decline.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: That's harsh, yeah.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:45] [SPEAKER_00]: But I will say you're right.

[00:13:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I think now it is starting to kind of go back up.

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_00]: But I would say without getting like too much into the data, yeah, it was probably around 50%.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the fact that they named the update the helpful content update.

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so many people we know on our content, your content, it's all like we put so much work into making it as helpful as possible.

[00:14:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And still yet a lot of those sites are hit.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And then you see Reddit and position two and all these like general big brand sites that are no doubt written by a team and quite generic and not that personal.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's all ranking as well, just because of the trust factors.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know.

[00:14:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I understand that they've got to do something about it because the world has been flooded by generic rubbish AI content right now.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So they're having to do something to combat it.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And hopefully that if you're seeing that kind of same thing, like we're seeing a rise again in recent months.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So if you're seeing that too, hopefully that means they're kind of trying to, they're certainly dialing it in and helping the smaller but helpful brands come back.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's, yeah, hopefully that's the effect we're seeing.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll see how that goes.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Never know with Google.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I have.

[00:14:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And just kind of like some of the forums I'm in and I do listen to a podcast called Niche Pursuits.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: And they're.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:15:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And they were.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: He was hit quite hard.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: And now, but he actually, I think his name is Jared.

[00:15:12] [SPEAKER_00]: He, because of the Reddit thing that you just mentioned, how Reddit responses are ranking to like search queries.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: He started a Reddit.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: He's still, you know, focused on the blog, but he started a whole like subreddit.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: And now he's getting traffic from that, which I thought was smart.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But then it's like, do I want to go and try to create this big Reddit presence?

[00:15:34] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I don't.

[00:15:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But maybe I'll have to.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, if we're playing by their rules and that's looking like, if that doesn't change or that continues to be, you know, one of the top search results, I might have to.

[00:15:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think that's it, isn't it?

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You've got to evolve.

[00:15:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, blogs might not be the strongest form of text search in future.

[00:15:52] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fine.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll evolve to it.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's frustrating to be pushed that way when you've put so much work into the original.

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, my feeling at the moment is I think that Google's aim, as always, along with the other search engines, is to surface content that people like and get help with, get help from.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And the more generic AI content that comes out, the more less helpful content comes out as well.

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So if they're wanting to try and combat that, the way I see them doing it, which benefits us as podcasters, is actually looking for evidence of real people's involvement.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think podcasting, video, that's a huge part of that.

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if we create a blog post that has some stories in there that are personal to us, but equally they're amplified by the fact that there's a podcast episode and built in there with a transcript that shows that it's related to this content as well.

[00:16:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's things like that will be signals to Google and other search engines that this is genuine, human-created content that people have put real time into.

[00:16:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm seeing that as a kind of a tactic for us just now is diversifying so that we're creating video, we're creating audio, we're creating text, but we're integrating them more effectively, bringing them all together a little bit so that they're all together to create this package that is obviously helpful, engaging, and human.

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, yeah, that's kind of one of my hedges towards it in the future.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I love that.

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's spot on.

[00:17:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I think, yeah, if Google can tell that, yeah, you have this blog, but it's linked to like a video and it has your face and they know you're a real person and the podcast and it's all funneled into the ecosystem.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think long-term that will prove to be successful with all this AI stuff.

[00:17:36] [SPEAKER_00]: At least they can be like, oh, well, these websites over here, you know, there's videos, there's blog posts, there's podcasts, there's social media emblems embedded.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Then we can see that those social media is linked to like a real person with real experience.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's spot on.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Colin, so you mentioned 2010, the podcast host, but like before that, okay, so you mentioned your multimedia background.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_00]: But like as far as like writing about like audio equipment, are you a musician or did you have some kind of experience like with microphones?

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And because you've got a lot of great, you know, like gear review articles and I've noticed piggybacking on, you know, being the real person with the real experience, like, you know, genuine photos of that equipment instead of just, you know, pulling shots, screenshots up the internet or something.

[00:18:23] [SPEAKER_00]: So like you had to have some kind of audio back knowledge, right?

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, so that's where employing somebody comes in.

[00:18:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So in the first place, like I said, I'm pretty geeky and nerdy.

[00:18:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I love playing around with gear.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So I did a lot of self-learning over two, three, four years in the early days, just playing around with mixers and reading about microphones and cardioid patterns and all this kind of stuff.

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But my first employee that really helped with this was a guy called Matthew McLean, who's on PodCraft.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So our podcast that's about podcasting, like Erwin Eric, is called PodCraft.

[00:18:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And Matthew and I have co-hosted that for years now.

[00:18:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So Matthew had a, so he came on with me just to be a podcast producer, but also a writer, also creating our own podcasts.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And his background was audio drama.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So he created a lot of fiction podcasts.

[00:19:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was all based on his training and background in audio production.

[00:19:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So he was the one that came on and really gave us a whole lot more experience around mics and mixers and audio production and, you know, EQ, compression, the science around actually working with audio.

[00:19:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So he brought a lot of that to the company back in the early years and taught me a lot of what I know about that nowadays, too.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, that helped a lot.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that makes sense.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's great.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like a perfect partnership with your strength and his strength.

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's talk a little bit about, okay, so as the blog starts to grow, you know, you're a few years in.

[00:19:50] [SPEAKER_00]: When did you kind of like get into the concept of like affiliate marketing?

[00:19:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And were you aware of what that was?

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Or was there like a strategy to eventually do that?

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Or did you do it right away?

[00:20:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Kind of, and you don't have to share any numbers or anything.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: But like, when did you realize like, oh, I can make a little bit of money with this.

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: And then, oh, at some point, maybe I can make a living with the affiliate being part of the revenue.

[00:20:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Or kind of tell me a little bit just about that whole experience.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: So like I said, the first blog post went up 2010.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Right at that point, I already knew a little bit about affiliate marketing, about online business.

[00:20:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I'd been listening to a few shows, like one of the first podcasts that I listened to actually.

[00:20:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But that was even before 2007, probably 2006 or so.

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a show called Internet Business Mastery.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was, oh, can I remember their names?

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Jay and, ah, I can't remember now.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not sure actually.

[00:20:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But the two hosts, I ended up, oh, Jason Van Orden actually was one of the hosts.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I ended up meeting him at a couple of events.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But they taught me so much about that stuff, actually.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And at that point before, around the same time I was running or I started the podcasthost.com site,

[00:21:06] [SPEAKER_01]: I was running three or four other sites just playing around with hobbies and stuff like that.

[00:21:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I'm really into mountain biking, for example.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So I had a mountain biking site and I had a few other things as well.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I was just playing with stuff because I was in a full-time job anyway, but I always enjoyed building new things.

[00:21:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I put the first few posts that we put, I think the first post that I put on the podcast host was the best microphones article that still exists today.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Updated, of course, but best microphones for podcasting.

[00:21:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And I put Amazon links into it because I'd read about the Amazon affiliate program.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And so initially, obviously, zero from that.

[00:21:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was maybe one, two years in, I got a check through.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it was about two years in.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: So probably 2012, 2013, I got a check through from Amazon for 50 bucks.

[00:21:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And it was the first ever money I'd made online.

[00:21:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, it's like light bulb moment, obviously, as a lot of people talk about.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, oh, this actually could work.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I started writing more articles about gear, about software, but stuff like that.

[00:22:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And it just started growing.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And really, that was the core of the kind of motivation to turn into a real business by 2015.

[00:22:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was 2015, that revenue had got up to a few thousand a month.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was really what allowed me to go full time on that and then take on Matthew as well,

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: which is really the kind of crux of turning it into a real business.

[00:22:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Dude, I love that story.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I love like one, kind of like the DIY and like the slow growth.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think for anybody listening, it's now 2024, Colin started the blog 2010.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think one thing to keep in mind is just how long it takes to really like grow something

[00:22:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and be successful and how much work and time you really have to put in.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Because I think it's just the way things are now with like the instant gratification

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and you see all these like social media, like scale your business to seven figures by taking

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_00]: this training.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And, you know, like, oh, like it's just, it's just so much of this flashy, like success.

[00:23:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Now do take, sign up for my thing.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And a year later, you're going to be making tons of money.

[00:23:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so it's just refreshing to hear that, that, that you put the work in and it took

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: that long.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_00]: And like you said, you got that first check that happened to me.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, uh, I, it was probably even, I don't remember the amount, probably not even $50,

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe like $12, but it's that feeling of, oh, so I can make money online.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_00]: Like if I could do this, maybe I can just do it over and over and grow it.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's rad that that's how it started.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, you know, it was one man, then two, and then you continue to grow.

[00:23:44] [SPEAKER_00]: And also for people listening, 2010 was the blog, but you said you were in podcasting

[00:23:49] [SPEAKER_00]: a couple of years before that, which, uh, I mean, most people didn't even know what a

[00:23:55] [SPEAKER_00]: podcast was at that point.

[00:23:56] [SPEAKER_00]: So it's just a testament to like, you put in the time, learn, keep making adjustments,

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_00]: tweaking, and you know, eventually if you're doing the right thing and you're working

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_00]: hard, you will have some sort of level of, of success.

[00:24:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Hopefully.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, for sure.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I think, I mean, you're quite right.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: It does.

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_01]: You have to be, you have to be ready for the long haul.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was, like I said, it was probably a year to two years.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: It was at least two years, I think before that first money come in, but it did grow like

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: reasonably.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You can grow momentum really quickly actually beyond that, I think.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And I've seen other people do this as well.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Like as long as you plan for the first one to two years, you know, 12 to 24 months, uh,

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_01]: to really not make much at that point, as long as you put that work in, you get to that

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_01]: two year mark, you're starting to turn some money.

[00:24:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Then you can grow pretty quickly from there.

[00:24:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like as soon as you've got a bit of momentum, as soon as you've got that authority, that depth

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: of content behind you, I think that's the point where you really can start turning that

[00:24:53] [SPEAKER_01]: flywheel and make it work for you.

[00:24:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, certainly it has been 14 years, like you say, but it didn't take quite that

[00:24:58] [SPEAKER_01]: long to get to a sustainable.

[00:25:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when we went full time, certainly we were up to about, I think it was about 4,000,

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: 5,000 ish a month at that point.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's, I mean, that's a good wage for just about anybody.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: So like, yeah, that's, it's great.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get to that within the three years, I would say, suggest as well, still, still

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: in any topic as well.

[00:25:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's easy to feel like you've kind of missed the boat, isn't it?

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause we're not early anymore.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:25:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I think people, people are proving that you can do it anytime.

[00:25:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You're never too late.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You're never too late.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:25:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I agree with that.

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_00]: But you know, things do get a little bit more saturated.

[00:25:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, so did you, and, and, and still now, I guess, other than like keyword research, do

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: you have any like technical SEO?

[00:25:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what kind of what's, what goes into your posts aside from just keyword research?

[00:25:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what tools do you use?

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you have any other kind of technical SEO expertise?

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm sure you've learned some of that by now, right?

[00:25:52] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_00]: We do do a lot.

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's a, it's our bread and butter is making sure that blog is, uh, is still

[00:25:57] [SPEAKER_01]: ranking.

[00:25:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We're getting the right trends.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: We're creating the right new articles.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, absolutely.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we use both SEM rush and H refs to keep an eye on traffic, to keep an eye on keyword

[00:26:07] [SPEAKER_01]: trends.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, like we were joking earlier on, like we, we write competitive blogs technically.

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're, you're light years ahead of me, but, but yeah.

[00:26:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, yeah.

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So you keep an eye on what other people are writing about, what's resonating and you, you

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: put your own spin on it.

[00:26:23] [SPEAKER_01]: You write your own article based on something similar and, and you create something that hopefully

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: targets your creators.

[00:26:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, our biggest source of, of keywords isn't necessarily even those, uh, those sites,

[00:26:35] [SPEAKER_01]: like those tools.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more actually keeping an eye on our customers.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_01]: This is a, you know, one of the biggest advantages of getting that first set of audience.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: That first bit of audience is that you have these people that then suddenly asking you

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: questions.

[00:26:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Suddenly they're the ones that are powering your content because they suddenly start sending

[00:26:53] [SPEAKER_01]: you through, you know, Twitter messages or emails or whatever it is, however they're getting

[00:26:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in touch.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And that becomes your next content because that is the people you're reaching.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the people that care about what you're creating.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And so it's their problems you're looking to solve.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So we often, um, send out surveys.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_01]: We often send out one question surveys, which basically is just, what are you struggling with

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: just now?

[00:27:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And that'll go to our email list.

[00:27:18] [SPEAKER_01]: That'll go out on the podcast.

[00:27:19] [SPEAKER_01]: That'll go out on the blog.

[00:27:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, and those answers are gold.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: That's what really keeps us ahead of what's going on because our audience tells us like,

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: as soon as there's something new comes out that they're struggling to figure out, they

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: send us the question, they let us know.

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, and that is really where it comes from.

[00:27:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:27:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that's key to, to, to stay in touch.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, cause the audience is that's, that's what you have.

[00:27:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's, that's the lifeblood of the business.

[00:27:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, speaking of email lists.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_00]: So at what point did you start building, building out the email list?

[00:27:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that right away or did that come later?

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I just waited too long as, as nearly everyone does wait too long, um, to start building

[00:27:57] [SPEAKER_01]: that.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_01]: When would that have been?

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That would have been certainly after we, uh, incorporate the company, probably 16,

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_01]: maybe 2016 or so.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, a fair amount later.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, I would say so.

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I couldn't remember exactly, but I think it was, I remember the notion that I had to do

[00:28:14] [SPEAKER_01]: it at some point and I realized I should have been doing this for the last two, three years,

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_01]: at least if not longer.

[00:28:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, but, um, I started learning about it fast and we put a lot of stuff into place, like pretty

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: quickly.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I think that was when we got into convert kit back then and really started building out

[00:28:29] [SPEAKER_01]: a bunch of sequences, like welcome sequences.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So we kind of went full bore on it as soon as I put it in, uh, really to try and give

[00:28:36] [SPEAKER_01]: people as much value as possible.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So as soon as they sign up, they get like 10, 15, 20 emails over a few months that really

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_01]: guide them through the whole thing.

[00:28:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, went right into it.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Smart.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I think building an email list, uh, even just as a podcast, or even if you're not a blogger,

[00:28:52] [SPEAKER_00]: but maybe you have just a landing page or something basic for, for your show, uh, to try to, yeah,

[00:28:57] [SPEAKER_00]: to try to slowly build that.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause they say, you know, those are your customers, whatever happens with social media, if you lose

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: those accounts or social media, something will change in the next 10 years.

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you have those, that direct, uh, pipeline via the email, I think that's key.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm yeah, I'm still working on mine.

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm starting to realize that like, I need to put way more effort into it.

[00:29:18] [SPEAKER_00]: It's kind of one of those things where I put, put a, like a signup button with a free, like

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_00]: ebook to, to course them to sign up.

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_00]: And then there was a couple, couple email sequences, but I've, you know, that's tended

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_00]: to die out.

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_00]: And so it's funny.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_00]: The reason why I'm bringing this up is because you mentioned it and actually just as of like

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_00]: two weeks ago, my brain was starting to get anxious.

[00:29:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, man, I really got to like kick in gear this email thing.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, so that's kind of like my next thing on my plate right now.

[00:29:49] [SPEAKER_00]: I just, I was on MailChimp and I just moved to Beehive, which I like a lot.

[00:29:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I've heard great things about ConvertKit.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a good platform.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:29:57] [SPEAKER_00]: But for podcasters too, right?

[00:29:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Like they, they, it might be a little more challenging because you tell them in the audio,

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, go to the website and sign up.

[00:30:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Have you had much luck with that converting people from the actual show?

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Not people that maybe aren't familiar with the website, but that listen to podcraft.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:30:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, definitely.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there's two, there's two sides to it.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_01]: One is that going back to that written content side, like more, most of the people that sign

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_01]: up for our email list are just visitors to the text side of the blog.

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So they find us via, it almost goes the other way.

[00:30:27] [SPEAKER_01]: They find us via text search.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: They read a bit of an article.

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_01]: They've signed up for the email list.

[00:30:31] [SPEAKER_01]: They might listen to a podcast episode at that point, but they might not.

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But then once we've got them on the email list, we can keep telling them about new podcast

[00:30:38] [SPEAKER_01]: episodes.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And therefore we can turn them into a listener, which really increases their trust, their fandom,

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, how much, how loyal they are to our content.

[00:30:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But equally, we do manage to convert a fair number from the podcast too.

[00:30:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And they tend to turn out to be really loyal readers, like opening every one, clicking all

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_01]: the links, all that kind of stuff.

[00:30:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And we do that often by providing a bit of an incentive.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we've built out a few different, you talked about like the free ebook or whatever.

[00:31:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we've built out a few different rewards, I suppose.

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you want to call them?

[00:31:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like a lead magnet, the technical term, I guess.

[00:31:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, lead magnet.

[00:31:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But I mean, that kind of, it makes it sound like a, you know, a trap.

[00:31:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's more like...

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It does.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It does.

[00:31:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We do make sure that these things are all actually really good.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people could, they would pay for them if you'd seen them.

[00:31:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So if I'm not willing, if I wouldn't be willing to charge like $20, $30 for something, I don't

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: think it's really worth offering even as a free gift.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So all the things we've managed to create like four or five, six of them over the years

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: that are really nice incentives.

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And we try and mention them on every podcast episode and say, you know, if you go over

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and sign up for the email list, we'll send you some of these free things.

[00:31:46] [SPEAKER_01]: And also we'll give you a little sequence.

[00:31:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Like we also talk about a course.

[00:31:50] [SPEAKER_01]: So if people sign up for our email list, they get a choice.

[00:31:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you pre-launch or are you post-launch?

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And if they say they're pre-launch, we'll send them a seven day book camp to help them

[00:32:01] [SPEAKER_01]: get their show out there.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So seven days of lessons, which is how to design and launch a podcast.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And if they say they're post-launch, there's a seven day growth course.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So they'll get seven growth tips that help them grow their audience a little bit over the

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: next few months.

[00:32:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think offering those incentives certainly helps a lot in converting those people.

[00:32:20] [SPEAKER_01]: And making sure you're actually like hammering it home every time as well.

[00:32:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Cause that's the downside of a podcast, isn't it?

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: People are out doing something often.

[00:32:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So you do need to mention it a few times and make it really memorable.

[00:32:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Like your, your short link, like we do something like thepodcasthost.com growth course or just

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: growth or something like, you know, quite memorable and easy.

[00:32:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And, and what I'm hearing is that's like most important with all that is like you said,

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_00]: like making sure whatever, if the freebie that it's quality, like, cause with the online

[00:32:52] [SPEAKER_00]: marketing world, there are tens, I don't say there's tens, but there can be a lot of like

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_00]: sleazy tactics like that.

[00:32:58] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you're genuinely like put your heart and your mind into something that you're proud

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_00]: of, and then you're offering that, I mean, that's the way to do it.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, cause then, you know, long-term it just builds trust.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's also as, as you, as the business owner, you want to put out like something

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_00]: you're proud of and you want to genuinely build like a community of good people that respect

[00:33:19] [SPEAKER_00]: you and you respect them instead of just, you know, doing some run of the mill freebie

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_00]: to, to get them to sign up.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think that's awesome.

[00:33:27] [SPEAKER_00]: That's a testament to probably your success and your longevity.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Um, okay.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_00]: So what point did you, cause like the next, the, the stereotypical next thing you got the

[00:33:37] [SPEAKER_00]: affiliate going, you're like, oh, we got to get a digital product going.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, so when, and I don't want to, everyone says it differently, but so when did you start

[00:33:46] [SPEAKER_00]: L it to, um, and tell, tell the good people like what that is.

[00:33:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And then maybe just a little bit about like how it works to the extent that you can of like

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: how the backend of it all, all works.

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Cause it, I mean, it's gotta be, I don't know if it's heavy with the code or like the

[00:34:02] [SPEAKER_00]: tech stuff, but to, to build something like that, it's gotta be pretty involved.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.

[00:34:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it definitely is.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:34:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I can't even imagine like that.

[00:34:12] [SPEAKER_00]: That's so impressive.

[00:34:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Like to be like this independent company and be able to like do something like, uh,

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: so yeah, I would love to hear about it.

[00:34:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_01]: No, I appreciate you saying that.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:34:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, yeah.

[00:34:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So Alitu was a funny one.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: It came out of an experiment really.

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, it came out again from listening to our audience, our audience, you know, we, we got

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_01]: those questions.

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: We send out those surveys and inevitably every single month, the biggest asked question was

[00:34:37] [SPEAKER_01]: always, Oh, I hate editing.

[00:34:39] [SPEAKER_01]: How can I make editing easier?

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, I just don't want to learn how to do compression and EQ and what's a bit rate.

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And like, how do I, why do I have to add music every single time and all this stuff.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was always the biggest pain point for people.

[00:34:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So at one point around, it was early 2016, I started thinking, I wonder if I could build

[00:34:57] [SPEAKER_01]: something like, cause like I said, I'm a bit kind of nerdy and technical anyway.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not a full on coder though, to be fair.

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: So I had to get some help with it, but I was playing around with some of the tools and

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: it ended up looking like some existing open source tools could start to, you know,

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: piece together bits of the podcast, start to do some of the audio cleanup automatically.

[00:35:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And I took on a developer to build a prototype and we got a little bit of funding from local

[00:35:19] [SPEAKER_01]: government here actually.

[00:35:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So Scottish Enterprise is a local organization in our country and they, they do provide a

[00:35:27] [SPEAKER_01]: little bit of assistance.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It has to be match funded.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So you have to pay some, they pay some, that kind of thing.

[00:35:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But that was really helpful too.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: So have to give some credit to them as well.

[00:35:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But that helped us put together the MVP, the first version of this.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the first version of Alitu was really this tool that guided brand new podcasters

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: through audio cleanup.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So they'd upload their audio.

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It would clean it up to the extent it could, does noise reduction, leveling, that kind of

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff.

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So it makes it sound nice.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there was an editing system in there.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was a really simple version of editing built just for podcasting.

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And the whole goal was to make it so that it wasn't like one of these airplane cockpit

[00:36:04] [SPEAKER_01]: DAWs that we currently have to use as, or we had at the time to use as podcasters with

[00:36:08] [SPEAKER_01]: all the bells and whistles and all that, and to automate as much as possible.

[00:36:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And people loved it.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Like people were just so happy that there was this simplified version that really contained

[00:36:17] [SPEAKER_01]: everything a podcaster needs and no more.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: None of the proper audio production stuff because we really don't need that as podcasters.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And so since then, we got that out 2017.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I got some really nice feedback.

[00:36:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We got about 50 people signed up initially.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we were recruiting maybe 50 or 100 people a month from then.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really grown steadily since then through the years.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And we've developed it whereby it looks entirely different to what it did now.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_01]: It does now to what it did in 2016.

[00:36:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, yeah, absolutely.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We've added in call recording now as well.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can record your calls directly in there.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: You can record solo calls in there.

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It'll clean all of that up for you automatically.

[00:37:01] [SPEAKER_01]: The cleanup's so much better now than it was then as well.

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it can take out things like dog barks and fire engines and things like that.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's like proper dynamic noise reduction, auto EQ for your voice to make you sound great.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So we've got that.

[00:37:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We've got the editing, the transcriptions, and then hosting as well.

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So podcast hosting is built in too.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can actually host and publish with Alitu as well.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So the intent or the goal was really just to make the creation process

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_01]: as simple as possible for podcasters.

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Podcasters all in one place.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_01]: So podcasters can go in there, they can record, they can edit, clean up and publish

[00:37:38] [SPEAKER_01]: all in one place.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's it done.

[00:37:40] [SPEAKER_01]: But equally, the one other thing I was really keen to do was make sure that we did give

[00:37:46] [SPEAKER_01]: creative control.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We did have creative options.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So if people want to use a different call recorder, like Riverside or Squadcast or whatever,

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: they can.

[00:37:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they can upload it to Alitu still.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And we'll still clean it up and let them edit it.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And equally, if they want to use a different host, because actually so many good hosting

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: platforms out there, we link up automatically to a whole range of hosts as well.

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So you can record and create Alitu and then publish directly to Libsyn, Captivate, Blueberry,

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Castos, lots of different hosts automatically.

[00:38:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's kind of the intent and the goal behind it.

[00:38:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And it took what we were seven, eight years into that journey now and still lots to develop.

[00:38:25] [SPEAKER_00]: No, but that's amazing, man.

[00:38:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And that helped with the grant.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: That's cool.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Don't know if there's anything like that here, but a helping hand is always with business.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, that's always key.

[00:38:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So two-part question.

[00:38:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Where'd you come up with the name?

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, let's talk about that.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: So tell us about the name.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Where did that come from?

[00:38:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So remember we talked about the fact that I was playing around with lots of different

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_01]: businesses or small websites back in like 2005 to 2010 or so.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I bought a business directory for $100 in about 2007 or 2008.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was a business directory.

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: It was one of these things, which was quite common at the time, where before people,

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: everyone just went to Google, they would go and search an actual business directory,

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: like it was like the yellow pages or something.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And so people would pay you $50 or $100 to list their business in it.

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Because one, they got a link that used to work back then.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And two, they got a bit of visibility.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And this business directory was called alitu.com.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I got this domain along with that business directory.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It worked.

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It paid itself back.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I made my money back, but it got killed by various Google algorithms, quite rightly,

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: because it really wasn't adding much value after a while.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But I kept a domain.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And that was really, so that was in my pocket, really, in my domain portfolio when I was starting

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: this new company in 2016.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, do you know what?

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: A five-letter domain is pretty valuable.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's quite a nice name.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't really tie us down to everything.

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, that's why.

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: No real meaning behind it.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: It just happened to be something that I had in my backyard.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: It came around.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:40:10] [SPEAKER_00]: No, that's interesting.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always curious to hear people's origin stories with the names.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And so now, and you don't have to share any numbers or anything, but is Alitu or the blog?

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I know they're kind of both related, but which one is a bigger source of the business now?

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, Alitu by far.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:40:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Alitu by far.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the blog really is a lead gen for Alitu.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: People come and find our content and we talk about, we make sure to keep the blog so the

[00:40:41] [SPEAKER_01]: podcast host really fair and partial.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But we do mention Alitu when it suits.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So we've got an article on podcast editing software, for example.

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: We cover all the different options.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: We give the pros and cons of them all.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And Alitu is included in there.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: And we mention it in various different places too, in our email lists and all that kind

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: of stuff.

[00:40:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So we do send quite a lot of customers to Alitu from the blog.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, even though the blog doesn't make as much technically as the Alitu software,

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: it's a huge part of the pie.

[00:41:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It's almost more valuable in a way because it's like, yeah, the first place people go.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_00]: It's the marketing.

[00:41:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell us a little bit more about your podcast and then maybe like, yeah,

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_00]: what are you thinking about?

[00:41:25] [SPEAKER_00]: If there's anything good share career-wise, business-wise in addition to that?

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, sure.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we run into podcasts just now.

[00:41:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So Podcraft, you'll find that in any good podcast listening app is just about podcasting,

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_01]: the industry of podcasting, how to run a great podcast.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_01]: But we started another show called The Creator Toolbox about a year ago, which is really just

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: talking about wider creator, the wider creator industry, how to run a creator business really.

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's more delving into how to actually, basically the story we just told over the last

[00:41:59] [SPEAKER_01]: half hour or so, how creator businesses work like blogging, YouTube and podcasting.

[00:42:05] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, those are the two shows I'm running just now.

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So like, what's next for you?

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Like what's going on?

[00:42:11] [SPEAKER_00]: What are you excited about?

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you dabbling in any other industries or just content?

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the thing I'm probably most excited about just now is that show that I just mentioned,

[00:42:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The Creator Toolbox, because we're expanding that out to be a full content brand over the

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: next, that's the plans I have at the moment for the next six months is to expand out.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Right now it's just a podcast, but we're looking at lots of different ways to build out

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: a whole new blog actually around that and really concentrated on creator business, like how

[00:42:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to create that, how to be a content creator and make it a part.

[00:42:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Either you're earning revenue just from that content itself, you know, through sponsorship,

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_01]: brand deals, all that kind of stuff, or you run a business already and you're using that

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_01]: content to grow that business.

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Because I think that's the stuff that I have done best over the last 10, 15 years.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's the stuff that interests me most actually when it comes to podcasting.

[00:43:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Like running podcasts that can do something like that.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_01]: So, and there's loads of people wanting to do that right now.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm really excited about building out that whole content brand actually over the next

[00:43:15] [SPEAKER_01]: little while.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: And I suppose the only other thing is we're going to be adding, we're working hard

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01]: right now to add video editing into Alitu over the next few months too.

[00:43:25] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's going to come out quite soon too, which will plug quite a big gap in terms of the

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: requests we get from people around podcasting.

[00:43:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Because like it or not, there's a lot more podcasts that are running video these days.

[00:43:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, rightly or wrongly, I could have an argument about that whole thing over the, but it's

[00:43:42] [SPEAKER_01]: not right for everyone, but still it's good for some people.

[00:43:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, we're getting a lot of requests for it.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:43:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I, uh, I fought the video thing for so long just, and only because it's like more work.

[00:43:52] [SPEAKER_00]: That was like the main thing.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:43:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But, but yeah, I do.

[00:43:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I do audio and video now.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:44:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, dude, that's good to hear the creator toolbox is saying again, the creator toolbox,

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: correct?

[00:44:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that's it.

[00:44:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Congrats on all the success.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Plug away.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Tell everyone where to find you.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Thank you very much.

[00:44:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Um, it's been great to come on Eric actually.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks for the invite.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yeah.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The easiest place is, uh, all of our podcast writing is over at thepodcasthost.com.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's thepodcasthost.com.

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you do want to try out Alitu, I'd love to have any, any podcasters come and try it

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_01]: out.

[00:44:26] [SPEAKER_01]: You get a seven day free trial, so you can try it for an episode and see if it works for

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: you.

[00:44:29] [SPEAKER_01]: It's over at alitu.com.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: That's A-L-I-T-U dot com.