Hookergate Co-Creator Guy Kelly on Winning iHeartRadio's Podcast Competition and Creating a True Crime Hit

[00:00:00] It was basically a story totally lost to history. It was a huge scandal, the prosecuting attorney was shaking down the brothels for money and free girls

[00:00:09] And eventually the feds came in broke the whole thing up and the local press dubbed it Hookergate because it was right after the Watergate scandal in the 70s

[00:00:31] What a potty people and welcome back to Clipped as always i'm Eric your host and Clipped brings you the tips resources and people

[00:00:38] And today on the pot, I've got my friend Guy Kelly he is a graphic designer, sound designer and the co-creator of a podcast called Hookergate

[00:00:47] which is what we're talking about today. Hookergate is a true crime series about a truck stop brothel

[00:00:55] And he created this with Lindsay Byron who came up with the impetus for Hookergate

[00:01:00] But what's rad is that they won the iHeartRadio, next great podcast competition

[00:01:06] So if out of thousands of podcasts they want and so they produced a full season of this show called Hookergate

[00:01:16] Which is really unbelievable because a conscious of thousands of people and then to win that I mean man

[00:01:23] That it's pretty epic and so this is guy story about the origins of Hookergate what it's about what went into creating it

[00:01:32] Well, you're gonna learn all about the iHeartRadio at the next great podcast competition

[00:01:37] And Guy sound design the whole thing

[00:01:40] So if you listen to the podcast and I totally recommend you do you're gonna hear his music, his sound design

[00:01:46] And it's just a masterpiece of what they've done so after you listen to this podcast go and download Hookergate award-winning podcast iHeartRadio

[00:01:56] This is Guy's story. This is part one says guys background playing music growing up and listening to rock and punk rock

[00:02:04] And how kind of that was the impetus for him being able to sound design this because he had that music background

[00:02:10] And it's funny how I think about it and I talk about this in the episode but like our past experience setting us up for the future

[00:02:17] And we don't really realize it and we might not even recognize it when you look back and you're like, oh, I wouldn't been able to do what I'm doing now

[00:02:25] If I didn't do what I was doing when I was younger and how all your past education learning failures wins

[00:02:33] They all kind of set you up for your life's trajectory

[00:02:36] But any case part one guy Kelly co-creator of hookergate next week part two where part two is going to focus on guys graphic design skills

[00:02:44] Because for his career guy is actually a graphic designer. We're gonna get into that part two

[00:02:50] But this part one hookergate and I realize this is a long intro but before we get into it got to give a shout out to Riverside Riverside is this podcast sponsor that's riverside dot FM

[00:03:01] You can create

[00:03:03] video and audio podcasts that are super high quality and they've also got excellent AI tools that can turn your episodes into short clips for social media with the click of a button

[00:03:14] And they just updated their transcription so their transcription, their AI will automatically transcribe your show

[00:03:21] And it just got way more accurate and I have personal experience with that

[00:03:26] And I can see firsthand that the transcription is more accurate, which I love so shout out to them for that

[00:03:33] But yeah, a lot of features over there they'll do show notes with their AI, the clips and honestly just recording great audio and video

[00:03:40] Through your web browser don't have to download anything

[00:03:43] And that's Riverside dot FM and hey, if you're a first time user and you want 20% off

[00:03:48] And you're the name of this show, clip CLIP ED at checkout. Let's get into it

[00:03:55] Hi, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me

[00:03:58] Yeah, man excited to talk to you. We've met and hung out a little bit

[00:04:02] At two different podcast movements one in Los Angeles and one in DC which as of recording this was just about

[00:04:10] I don't know maybe three weeks ago coming up on a month ago

[00:04:13] I wanted to talk to you about several things which we'll get into the first of which is

[00:04:18] And I ask everybody this because just sets the tone for like who you are and your vibe and all that

[00:04:24] But where are you originally from?

[00:04:26] Originally I'm from Kentucky. I was born in Louisville, Kentucky and grew up in a small town

[00:04:32] About 60 miles from there called Springfield, Timmy Lil Town

[00:04:35] I went to college in Louisville

[00:04:38] And that's where I met my wife and then shortly after that moved to Cincinnati for a job

[00:04:43] And now I live in Cleveland for a different job that my wife got about two years ago

[00:04:48] Cool man, and I'm seeing those guitars in the background

[00:04:51] And just knowing what I know about you

[00:04:54] What age did you get into music? What inspired that? What age did you start playing?

[00:05:00] So I have always been into music. My parents were really into music. My dad played guitar

[00:05:05] And he was like, what do you think?

[00:05:06] And when I was a kid growing up and I was forced to take piano lessons

[00:05:12] When I was a little kid five years old started taking piano lessons

[00:05:15] And I didn't really like it. It was a chore. All of my siblings had to do it

[00:05:20] But around age 11 or 10, sometimes around there I was getting into like a guitar based music

[00:05:27] I think it was actually, do you remember firehouse?

[00:05:30] They were like a hair metal band in the late 80s early 90s?

[00:05:34] No, I don't. It was like that doesn't ring a bell

[00:05:37] It was like poison kind of thing but not as popular

[00:05:40] And but they had a hit song back when I was in sixth grade

[00:05:44] And I was just like, you know what? I put my dad could teach me how to play that song

[00:05:48] It opened on an acoustic guitar, my dad had one

[00:05:51] And as soon as I said that my dad was just like, this is what I've been waiting for

[00:05:54] So he went out and bought me a cheap guitar

[00:05:57] And I just kind of fell in love with it immediately

[00:06:00] I eventually gravitated towards the bass guitar

[00:06:05] And so I kind of started starting probably around age 12 or 13

[00:06:09] Started playing mostly bass

[00:06:11] But I start playing drums and guitar

[00:06:15] And I can still kind of play the piano

[00:06:18] I don't really read music very well but I know enough to like figure it out

[00:06:23] But I mostly just play by ear

[00:06:25] Dude, I have a similar story kind of

[00:06:27] I wasn't forced to take any lessons

[00:06:30] But I did take some like early on

[00:06:32] I think it was like fourth grade is what I recall

[00:06:35] Of like guitar

[00:06:37] And it was like super boring

[00:06:39] I didn't I wanted I kind of knew I wanted to play guitar

[00:06:42] But like the lessons it was like yeah they had me reading like Mary had a little lamb

[00:06:46] And stuff like that

[00:06:47] And then I kind of stopped and then I started playing again

[00:06:51] And the guy, how's a little older

[00:06:54] And he was kind of teaching me like bluesy stuff

[00:06:55] And I was like alright so this is kind of cool

[00:06:58] But got a little more into it

[00:07:00] But then when I really started playing was like yeah

[00:07:02] Probably middle school except

[00:07:03] Instead of hair metal bands for me

[00:07:05] It was like Nirvana and Green Day

[00:07:08] And that kind of sent me off

[00:07:10] Into wanting to play rock music and stuff

[00:07:14] Yeah that sort of style is like

[00:07:17] That's what I kind of really kind of fell in love with it

[00:07:21] You know the guns and roses that kind of stuff was what was available to me

[00:07:26] Growing up in small town Kentucky

[00:07:28] That's difficult

[00:07:29] Dude if you were trying to play that at a young age wow

[00:07:32] Yeah and then I found when I found Nirvana

[00:07:36] It was just sort of like

[00:07:37] I guess they were really kind of who inspired me to start writing music

[00:07:42] Because it was at that age

[00:07:45] It's when I started writing music around 13

[00:07:48] Because it was like well

[00:07:50] These saw I was learning Nirvana songs to play with my friends

[00:07:53] And I was like I can write these

[00:07:55] These are really simple you know bar chords kind of thing

[00:07:58] And so

[00:07:59] Out you know

[00:08:01] Kind of became my focus as early as 13 was writing music

[00:08:05] Rather than just learning to play with other people did

[00:08:08] Hell yeah I love that. Yeah, I think you're right

[00:08:10] I think you know you learn a few power chords and a few bar chords

[00:08:13] And you put like four of them together and you're like oh this is kind of what they're doing

[00:08:18] You know like those bands and then

[00:08:20] I love that because that kind of just kick starts

[00:08:22] Every around our age every person's like rock story or music story

[00:08:26] It's very similar which I think is cool

[00:08:29] And so as time went on

[00:08:31] Did you like tell me were you in bands where you like did you do you tour

[00:08:36] Did you play a lot of shows like what was that like

[00:08:39] So I was pretty much was always in bands from the age of 13

[00:08:45] A varying levels of success mostly no success

[00:08:50] But at near the end of college

[00:08:52] And it was all local band kind of stuff

[00:08:55] Near the end of college

[00:08:57] I this was around 2003

[00:09:01] I'd been in a few local bands that

[00:09:03] We're getting a little bit of attention there locally and a couple of bands that I was

[00:09:08] Big fans of their entown asked me to join and play bass for them

[00:09:12] And one of those was called your black star was the name of the band

[00:09:16] And we toured around quite a bit

[00:09:19] We're very very small

[00:09:21] I don't even know if you can even find anything of theirs online anymore

[00:09:25] And I never actually recorded anything with them

[00:09:27] So there isn't any evidence of me being in the band out there

[00:09:33] But I toured around a lot with them

[00:09:35] That was a really fun experience sort of getting a

[00:09:38] Look into that side of the world

[00:09:42] The last tour I did with them was for a band

[00:09:45] From Louisville called Elliott who was on revelation records

[00:09:48] And they were moderately successful

[00:09:51] At the time I thought they were huge

[00:09:53] By today standards they're pretty small

[00:09:55] But they broke up and went on one farewell tour

[00:09:59] And they brought us along with them to open for them

[00:10:01] So every night I was playing to one to two thousand people

[00:10:05] And there was a green room with food

[00:10:07] I got paid five dollars a day

[00:10:09] It was like oh man if made it like this is it

[00:10:13] But that's about as close as I've gotten to

[00:10:16] Actual success as far as band goes

[00:10:18] Dude, I love that

[00:10:20] Getting to tour a little bit

[00:10:21] Did a little bit of that

[00:10:24] Mostly like West Coast Pacific Northwest

[00:10:26] Arizona San Diego

[00:10:29] The reason why one I'm a huge music fan

[00:10:32] That's a big part of my life

[00:10:34] Especially when I was younger not as much now

[00:10:36] But like the same enthusiasm

[00:10:38] The whole like DIY thing punk rock

[00:10:40] And then I was actually really big into like

[00:10:42] Emo and then like screen hardcore

[00:10:44] And all those kind of bands

[00:10:46] And like the early 2000s

[00:10:48] But I just like hearing people stories

[00:10:50] When it comes to music because it's inspiring

[00:10:52] And I think it just tells a little bit

[00:10:54] Like who you are and what you're about

[00:10:57] So fast forward to

[00:11:00] Hookergate

[00:11:01] So for those of you that don't know

[00:11:03] Guys the co-creator as well as other roles in the show

[00:11:07] Of a podcast called Hookergate

[00:11:08] Which ended up

[00:11:11] And still has a lot of success

[00:11:12] But tell us the story of how that all started

[00:11:17] And yeah

[00:11:18] Just like the wild ride that you've been on with that

[00:11:22] Yeah

[00:11:23] It's hard to even know where to start

[00:11:25] I've told the story a lot though

[00:11:27] So I have a really good friend

[00:11:29] Name Lindsay Byron

[00:11:30] She has an online persona called Luxatl

[00:11:34] Has pretty big

[00:11:35] Following online

[00:11:36] Her and I have been really good friends

[00:11:38] For about 10 years

[00:11:40] Our spouses are good friends

[00:11:41] We go on trips together

[00:11:43] You know all four of us and everything

[00:11:45] And the two of us we just like all the same art

[00:11:48] And music

[00:11:48] And we've collaborated a lot

[00:11:51] Musically and a couple of years ago

[00:11:54] I get this call from her

[00:11:55] And she's like

[00:11:57] Dude I've got this idea

[00:11:58] I've got this story

[00:11:59] And she proceeds to tell me about how a family member of her is

[00:12:03] brought her this box of old newspaper clip

[00:12:05] And they were from the 70s

[00:12:07] And they were about this story

[00:12:08] From her hometown of Danville, Virginia

[00:12:11] Of this truck stop brothel ring

[00:12:13] That's the hook that gets everybody

[00:12:16] When I say truck stop brothel ring

[00:12:17] They are like tell me more

[00:12:19] Well also it started in a rough

[00:12:21] But did you say several years ago

[00:12:24] Like the impetus of this was

[00:12:26] Yes, yeah

[00:12:27] So this was in 2021

[00:12:28] Was when I first heard about when my friend first heard about it

[00:12:33] Okay

[00:12:33] So it was basically a story

[00:12:35] Totally lost to history

[00:12:36] It was a huge scandal

[00:12:38] The prosecuting attorney was shaking down

[00:12:41] The brothels for money and free girls

[00:12:43] And eventually the feds came in

[00:12:46] And broke the whole thing up

[00:12:48] And the local press dubbed it Hucker Gate

[00:12:50] Because it was right after

[00:12:51] The Watergate scandal

[00:12:53] In the 70s

[00:12:55] And it sort of got lost to history

[00:12:57] A bunch of people went to prison

[00:12:59] And my friend who grew up there never heard about it

[00:13:02] Gets this box of old newspaper

[00:13:04] Clippings dumped on her

[00:13:06] And she's a writer, the reason why they gave it to her

[00:13:08] It was because she's a writer

[00:13:09] And they wanted her to do something

[00:13:11] Created with it

[00:13:12] And she had done podcasts before

[00:13:14] She had done books before

[00:13:15] I actually designed her book that she wrote

[00:13:19] And so right after she discovered this

[00:13:22] And I was like, I've got to figure out something to do with this

[00:13:24] I heard podcasts

[00:13:27] And now it's the next great podcast competition

[00:13:30] I was actually the second one they did

[00:13:32] They did one in 2020

[00:13:33] I think and then the second one in 2021

[00:13:36] And she called me up she's a story

[00:13:38] It's like it's perfect for this

[00:13:40] And we just got to make this 60 second trailer to start

[00:13:44] Enter the competition

[00:13:46] She had a vision for it

[00:13:47] Like she already knew what kind of music she wanted

[00:13:50] And this idea for what it would be like

[00:13:53] Ultimately

[00:13:54] And it sounded like exactly the kind of project I wanted to work on

[00:13:58] And so

[00:14:00] We over the course of about a week

[00:14:02] We made a 60 second trailer for

[00:14:06] For the podcast

[00:14:07] And we made like a pitch deck

[00:14:10] I like a PDF

[00:14:11] A pitch presentation that we submitted

[00:14:13] For this competition

[00:14:16] And a couple months later

[00:14:17] We get told we're one of 10 finalists

[00:14:19] To produce pilot

[00:14:21] And we got a little bit of money to produce a pilot

[00:14:24] But we only had two weeks to do it

[00:14:26] And because of our schedules

[00:14:27] We really only had one week to do

[00:14:29] And so we just

[00:14:31] Worked our tails off for a week

[00:14:34] And put together this pilot episode

[00:14:37] And send it in

[00:14:37] And a couple months later

[00:14:39] We got an email that we won

[00:14:41] And you know that's kind of why I'm here today

[00:14:44] So right after that we then

[00:14:46] You know got to work on the full first season

[00:14:48] And which turned into an even bigger

[00:14:51] Production then we were expecting it to be

[00:14:53] So it took

[00:14:54] It took quite a long time to get it finished up

[00:14:57] But we just released the first season

[00:14:59] This year back in March

[00:15:01] Dude so much unpacked there

[00:15:04] First off

[00:15:06] What I'm saying and for the audience

[00:15:08] Say why I set up the whole music thing

[00:15:10] Is because like

[00:15:12] This idea for this trailer came about

[00:15:14] But it's like I feel like because of your background

[00:15:17] And being creative and like music

[00:15:19] And the whole DIY thing

[00:15:21] It kind of

[00:15:22] Coalesces into like

[00:15:25] Creating something

[00:15:26] And you when her she got this idea

[00:15:28] And you're like yeah we can create that

[00:15:29] Because you had been creating things

[00:15:31] Or whole life and you're also a graphic designer

[00:15:33] Which we'll get into

[00:15:34] But it's interesting right how like people's past kind of sets them up for something

[00:15:38] That maybe similar or a little different

[00:15:42] But like their past experience kind of like

[00:15:44] Sets them up for success for something else or

[00:15:48] For other quote unquote like creative projects

[00:15:51] Which I think is rad

[00:15:52] And I think there is like a connection there

[00:15:54] If you follow like your story

[00:15:56] Um but dude so I didn't know

[00:15:58] It was the trailer and then you won that

[00:16:01] And then um

[00:16:03] And then they're like okay go you got to create a pilot

[00:16:05] So like what the hell is that like

[00:16:08] And and you

[00:16:09] And remind me they gave you a little bit of money to create the pilot

[00:16:13] Or not yet

[00:16:14] Yes, yeah so we got and we didn't get it up front

[00:16:17] We got reimbursed took like two months to get it

[00:16:19] But um part of the contest

[00:16:22] Would be I think it was ten

[00:16:24] Either eight or ten

[00:16:25] Finalist and we got a thousand dollars each

[00:16:27] To produce a

[00:16:29] Thirty minute pilot

[00:16:30] Did you guys know anything about like how to budget or how to produce a podcast or were you both just created as in your like okay?

[00:16:37] We can take this kind of story and knowing what we know about podcasting

[00:16:43] Or did you not really listen to too many crime podcasts or podcast in general

[00:16:47] Did you have like any I like

[00:16:49] You don't I mean like because it's kind of crazy

[00:16:53] Yeah, I didn't have much idea personally prior to all of this starting

[00:16:57] All right so my friend Lindsay she's a podcast junkie and she's done podcast in the past before okay she did one

[00:17:06] Called strip cast

[00:17:08] She like her kind of hook online as she's a stripper with a PhD she went to

[00:17:14] Like worked in the clubs to work her way through school and then when she graduated found out she was going to make more money in the clubs

[00:17:19] And she was going to as a professor

[00:17:21] What are those okay

[00:17:23] Yeah, yeah, so it's kind of really interesting story she's a really interesting story

[00:17:27] Interesting person and incredibly smart and talented

[00:17:31] But that's kind of what she built her persona around was sort of the stripper with a PhD kind of thing so she has this podcast where she talks about her

[00:17:40] Experience is working in the clubs so she so she had some experience actually doing it actually podcasting yourself

[00:17:47] I'm in probably listening to to podcast. So you're like, okay, this is what a podcast is like and then you can kind of

[00:17:53] Especially if you listen to other true crime. You can kind of like visualize like story arc and you said she was a writer

[00:17:58] So okay, so that all makes sense. Yeah, yeah, and so she like she had an idea for what she wanted it to be like, you know

[00:18:07] Because it's not a

[00:18:09] A journalistic podcast so to speak it's we call it a docu drama. You know there's a little bit of

[00:18:14] Retelling in narration of the story, but there's also like dramatic reenactments and voice actors and scenes that we recreate

[00:18:21] And so she sent me some podcasts to like reference like this is kind of like the the overall like concept of what I'm going for

[00:18:31] You know these sorts of things. So I had like a crash course on on it, but I didn't really know how to make a podcast

[00:18:40] To what you say it is kind of like you know the only reason I was able to do it was because of the

[00:18:45] 20 years of learning music and music production

[00:18:50] Prior to that, you know beyond just our you know history of working together

[00:18:54] But like I kind of knew what to do

[00:18:57] I wouldn't say that I did it the most efficient way. You know if I were going to do this, you know the next time I do it or for other people who did it

[00:19:05] But I wasn't like how do I even get started like I knew I knew how to do it. It was just

[00:19:11] Putting in the work and making it happen

[00:19:14] Yeah and

[00:19:16] Okay, so you get you get the pilot

[00:19:18] And then what happens next and tell me a little bit to about like

[00:19:23] The steps of creating something like this like story boarding or whatever it is

[00:19:31] So there are a couple of things one big detail was we had an interview with her family member who gave her

[00:19:42] And that was the only one we knew we were going to be able to get like in two days

[00:19:46] So we recorded an interview with her and then Lindsey took all of her mysterious and the interviews and sort of wrote a script

[00:19:56] And

[00:19:57] Read it all out she lives in Atlanta. I was living in Cincinnati at the time

[00:20:02] But you know, we weren't never in the same room

[00:20:04] So she just did everything you know kind of on her own wrote a script

[00:20:08] Recorded it sent it to me and then I started like piecing it together because she would have notes like sound effects here and do this here

[00:20:17] Transition here and add in this clip from the interview here. Oh, so she had a lot of start yes. Yeah, it was very well thought out and outlined

[00:20:25] I went in start working on it from there. I actually

[00:20:29] You know, it was like I think we should make these changes to you know

[00:20:33] To improve it so she actually ended up I think probably recording the whole episode

[00:20:38] So three or four times like record it send it to me. We put it together review it and then you know kind of do that back and forth

[00:20:46] And this was all in the course of like a week. It was it was really kind of insane

[00:20:49] And then that time I'm writing music

[00:20:53] I'm gathering sound effects and putting

[00:20:55] You know those together as well as just all of the editing part and trying to critique the actual, you know, story at the same time

[00:21:03] So it was really

[00:21:05] Really fast paced and really just kind of making it up as we went along

[00:21:13] Before we get back to the interview. I just wanted to mention that

[00:21:17] Clipped falls under the umbrella of the podcast haven the podcast haven is the podcast production company that I own and I run

[00:21:24] And at the podcast even we produce podcasts for business leaders and global enterprises

[00:21:29] We've done a lot of shows with some pop companies out there in the world

[00:21:33] And this show clip falls under the umbrella of the podcast haven. I just wanted to throw that out there because I don't know how many people know that

[00:21:41] And just trying to draw more awareness to the podcast haven and if you're a business leader, if you're head up marketing at your company and you guys are looking to start a podcast

[00:21:50] Reach out go to the podcast haven dot com fill out the contact form on the homepage of our website

[00:21:55] I will get back to you and I'll explain how we can help you with your podcast goals and take a show from just an idea or a concept all the way through launch

[00:22:04] So that's the podcast haven dot com fill out that contact form and let's make it happen guys

[00:22:15] And what kind of tools since you guys are all remote like what I'm assuming zooms and then tell me a little bit about like we're using described or what

[00:22:25] Dot you like to work in for editing and recording and stuff. I use logic for my music production and just because I kind of always have I started using it. I'm an apple guy so it was an easy transition to make and

[00:22:44] It comes included with a lot of software instruments so strings piano, saxophone whatever you can imagine

[00:22:52] We're percussion instruments is all comes included in software. So that's what I started using has been I've been using it for a long time

[00:23:00] I didn't know anything about described when we started this so I just did everything in logic like

[00:23:07] Lindsay would send me her way file she had as a recording set of once she's done previous podcast, but

[00:23:13] I actually had a this microphone that I have she recorded the pilot with it because I've left it with her when we recorded some songs together. We wrote some songs together and recorded those in Atlanta

[00:23:25] But she would send me her way file and it included all of her you know mess ups and reduce and notes to me verbally and I just clocked it into logic listen to it and started chopping it up and putting it into an actual finished piece

[00:23:43] And then I stayed inside of logic and wrote the music on on top of it and put the sound effects on top of it was all just in one single session

[00:23:54] Wow, yes, so just taking that and putting it into logic. I mean, that's honestly what I would do. I work in pro tools, but yeah, I mean a lot of people use all these like elaborate it my wife is calling me. I don't know why

[00:24:07] We'll keep that in that's funny. Yeah, I use pro tools

[00:24:11] I'm kind of old school like that too. Honestly, I would probably personally follow a similar workflow

[00:24:17] But nowadays with I have worked with the team ones where we did it like and described because then you can like leave notes and it all saves like on the cloud in real time and you could like highlight stuff and

[00:24:28] However you like to work regardless, but I'm on I'm on page with you with with how I would probably prefer it's just kind of easier for me

[00:24:37] But so let's talk about the music. So did she have a vibe in mind or did you have a vibe in mind or kind of like how does that come about?

[00:24:46] Because that could take so many different like shapes and styles and it's and with a show like this like a

[00:24:54] Well produced like quote unquote true crime type of show like the sound design the music the sound effects all of that like is very important kind of paints the picture like so what what how did that come about?

[00:25:08] Well, I got to give a lot of credit to Lindsay. She had a vision from the very beginning. The way she described it to me the music that she envisioned was dark bluegrass

[00:25:18] Which sounded awesome to me. I don't listen to a lot of bluegrass, but I know a lot about it, but I like dark music and when she said that I just like I already like could just hear it in my head

[00:25:30] Like even without like actual notes or anything I just like I knew exactly what she was saying and exactly what I was going to try to do

[00:25:38] And so that was sort of the the guiding light you know, and first all it was was just the the theme music for the trailer, you know the 60 seconds to go behind

[00:25:48] The opening theme and then when it came time to actually do the full episode

[00:25:56] For the pilot we didn't I don't know if she gave me too much notes. I just kind of went along with what she had the vibe that she had told me

[00:26:03] When it came for the actual full season she had a vision where she wanted

[00:26:09] She imagined like theme songs for different character groups because we have stories that intertwined so you know there's the

[00:26:16] local journalist protagonist and the the guys who work in the the brothels. There's the girls. There's the the police

[00:26:24] The corrupt police there's all these different people. So they all got their own

[00:26:28] Musical theme that I would use to like introduce

[00:26:34] Character sets and then when they brought back into the story in the later episode, bring their music back in to sort of clue the listener into

[00:26:42] What's going on and how the story is changing

[00:26:44] Dude, it's so interesting that you say that because I worked with a guy one time and he was

[00:26:50] Very similar to what you just said like different he was doing it not so much with music, but with different like sound elements

[00:26:57] Sorry, kind of sick

[00:26:59] Different sound elements were like yeah if a certain character came in or a certain scene change

[00:27:05] There would be like these familiar sounds to like so that you associated it with with something

[00:27:11] So that obviously I guess it's like a technique you know, it is and I only you know know that just casually from because I'm

[00:27:22] You know I really like reading about music and production of all sorts, you know, so I'm kind of a

[00:27:29] You know I know more about like fully and like the production of movies than maybe your average person does even though I've never actually made a movie before

[00:27:38] That kind of stuff really fascinates me and so I definitely

[00:27:43] Understand that as a concept it was very intentional about doing that and were you doing like you mentioned like the the software sense like a lot of many stuff

[00:27:53] Where you playing like bass and guitar on it as well. It's our and what really interests me to is um

[00:27:59] Would you like listen to well

[00:28:02] Explain how went because in my mind I'm like what I listen to kind of like the voiceover and the clips of like from interviews and stuff while I try to compose or what I just write something and then kind of drop it into the show and it would just kind of make sense

[00:28:20] It was a bit a bit of both I think there might have been two parts to that question. I don't remember at all, but the

[00:28:29] Generally the music would start with just me on a guitar for the most part if you hear a guitar playing on the episode

[00:28:38] I'm actually playing that guitar hooked up, you know recorded with a microphone which is actually really difficult to do when you're trying to be fast-paced

[00:28:47] But most of the other

[00:28:49] Instruments are software instruments so I'm playing them

[00:28:54] With a keyboard or even I don't know if you've ever like clicked in MIDI notes on a dog. Oh, yeah, draw in you can yeah, yeah

[00:29:01] So I do that quite a bit just because it's faster sometimes

[00:29:05] So most of the instruments are digital

[00:29:08] Playing with a MIDI controller

[00:29:10] But pretty much all the guitar I actually played that and so most of the songs started with me just holding with an acoustic guitar coming up with ideas and licks

[00:29:22] And then I would go in and listen to the narration after I had it edited it down and play on top of it to sort of see how it fit

[00:29:30] You know, it's a very delicate balance of like having interesting music without getting in the way and pausing

[00:29:39] For words knowing when to pause or when to you know play

[00:29:44] So it's

[00:29:46] I was very intentional about where everything fit in and the rhythm of everything

[00:29:52] With the narration it wasn't just record the music get it that good and then pop it underneath it. It was very much done all together at once

[00:30:00] Yeah, very very

[00:30:01] Like methodical and very like in it rather than just oh, I'm going to write this song and then we'll just kind of edited it and like yeah, you really thought about it

[00:30:10] And you kind of have to like feel it to imagine more so than just kind of

[00:30:15] Yeah, coming up with something that you could quickly like like drop in

[00:30:19] Yeah, there are a lot of during the actual fulling episodes a lot of them I would like literally play it as I'm listening to it

[00:30:26] And record it in real time and would just have to do it until I got it right because it was

[00:30:32] You know, I couldn't really do a tempo

[00:30:35] It wasn't a solid tempo throughout the whole time this section has to be slightly faster

[00:30:40] And so I just have to practice it and do it several times to get the line in the right timing to fit with the words and the narration

[00:30:50] Yeah, that's got to be tricky because you're right. Yeah, you're not just like to a metronome. It's all just like feel like all

[00:30:57] Okay, cool man and so

[00:30:58] After pilot how long did it take to complete the whole thing or did you have to complete it and like ship it to I heart all at once or was there like a middle process?

[00:31:10] Yeah, we completed the entire season season one and submitted that before we actually got on a scheduled for release

[00:31:17] So the time that took it was January or February of 2022 when we found out that we won

[00:31:25] And it was March of 2024 when it was released

[00:31:29] So two years the whole that hold it damn. Okay, that makes sense. So right like the day that we found out that we won

[00:31:40] She found out that she was pregnant

[00:31:41] Which was she's happy about but it wasn't expected. It was kind of an unexpected you know wrinkle in everything

[00:31:50] And also she started the process of researching was which was really intense and she in that process found

[00:31:58] The federal court transcripts for the federal trial that went on which was like 4,000 pages

[00:32:02] That she had to go to Philadelphia the National Archives by a flatbed scanner and by hand scan 4,000 pages and then read them to like you know create this story

[00:32:16] So it ended up being yeah, that's crazy

[00:32:20] Yeah, and in fact she she did it eight months pregnant with a mask on because there's in the middle of COVID

[00:32:28] Eight hours a day and for like three days scanning these pages over and over and over again

[00:32:34] So with all of that just by itself, it's a it's massive undertaking but all of that you know just kind of added to how long it took

[00:32:43] And then

[00:32:44] You know once the episodes come to me once you know should be done she would record and send it up to me and then I got to start all my work on it

[00:32:51] And then after that is the revision process and everything so all together we finished everything in November of 2023

[00:33:02] And it took it was it wasn't able to get released until March just because there's a really long lead time on the schedules at I heart, so

[00:33:12] Like you have to submit and be done at least for you know episodic stuff like that

[00:33:20] Once it's done you get on the schedule and it's always like several months ahead that they've already had planned out so

[00:33:24] Like to do their whole like to build up like a marketing kit push and stuff like that

[00:33:29] Dude, so when we first met at the podcast movement, Evolutions in LA, it had just like

[00:33:36] Wet live I guess because yeah, I think I remember and I could be miss speaking but I want to say at that point only

[00:33:42] Not all the episodes were out because they didn't drop a mall at once right was right for a week until they all yes, we dropped once one a week

[00:33:52] For each episode and when we met episode two had just come out

[00:33:58] So it was brand new you know really exciting and yeah, so I was you know still right at the beginning of it it felt like

[00:34:10] And did did at any point did you guys hire help because I see sometimes like on these true crime shows or any kind of like in depth like a narrative show or something

[00:34:19] Sometimes there's like a staff at these big companies like of like six people, they'll be like senior producer associate producer editor

[00:34:26] I've even seen like a job fact checker researcher

[00:34:31] Did it's a little bit or did it was just the two of you it was just the two of us

[00:34:36] I like I wish we we could have and you know in the future where we've got big plans for other stories and other big projects and it would it would be amazing to build a team

[00:34:47] To have that many people right now. It's just the two of us we did absolutely everything

[00:34:53] And I'm pretty proud of that because if you look at us, you know we're still you know we haven't

[00:35:06] This morning I looked we're still like number 130 on the true crime charts

[00:35:10] We still get put on some list by Apple every now and then so we're still kind of up there and most of the

[00:35:17] Most of the

[00:35:19] Podcasts on the charts they're around us on the true crime charts are made by big teams like you're talking about you know, oh yeah dude like Amazon or Wondereen like they invest in

[00:35:36] And even smaller studios but big teams are kind of our peers on the charts and it's just the two of us doing everything

[00:35:44] Did well congratulations on that and that success. I mean, that's huge. It sounds like it was

[00:35:49] Just a wild ride just the impetus of it and the contest and you not really being that involved in podcasting at all

[00:35:58] So did you like because you said she had to scan those documents and I'm imagining

[00:36:05] Yeah, just like re-dons of research and like how many interviews did you have to do and did you have to schedule them or is there not a lot of interviews kind of what was that like

[00:36:17] So in the actual season there's only two interviews she didn't more than that

[00:36:24] The biggest interview we have the best one was

[00:36:28] Rodney Smith who was the journalist who kind of broke the story back in the day she was able to find him

[00:36:33] And get an interview with him and he's amazing was really great on the podcast

[00:36:40] And then there was someone who was the son of one of the prosecutors

[00:36:46] One of the law enforcement that wasn't involved in it all one of the people is actually prosecuting it his son was interviewed for it

[00:36:54] And in the course of that interview, he actually admitted to going to the brothels when he was a teenager which was kind of wild and unexpected

[00:37:02] But as you can imagine, a lot of people that were affiliated with this didn't really want to talk to Lindsey when she came looking for interviews to do the full season

[00:37:12] So she actually found a few of the women that were involved and you know they're all grandmothers at now

[00:37:19] Some of them have very nice lives some of them have very bad lives right now

[00:37:25] And none of them wanted to talk to her. She did talk to a few like preliminarily and most of them backed out

[00:37:34] The one person who didn't back out was such a mess like you know really drunk the whole time and everything that she just it wasn't even worth using

[00:37:44] So so a few interviews but that still is something we, you know

[00:37:50] Wouldn't mind uncovering for you know future season

[00:37:54] Did I heart like did they have any creative control?

[00:37:58] I'm just curious like how it works in that position, maybe for other people who maybe they get signed for a podcast and like is there

[00:38:05] Like watching you or as they're like check ins where you have to like submit

[00:38:10] Whatever like rough cut of an episode or is it kind of just take the ball and run

[00:38:15] We had complete creative freedom

[00:38:17] With everything so we didn't get any notes. They didn't ask for any updates

[00:38:23] We would send in updates as we were going along just so they knew everything was going along

[00:38:28] But we submitted the episodes and I asked about that if you know there was a chance we'd get notes and they basically said unless there was like audio quality problems

[00:38:38] We weren't gonna hear anything

[00:38:40] And never heard anything so happy about that part

[00:38:43] Was there lawyers involved on your end?

[00:38:46] I'm sure obviously on their end but like did you was like, did they make you do like NDAs?

[00:38:51] Could you like announce that you won the contest before the show was like completed?

[00:38:56] Yes, well we yeah we were able to announce they announced it you know that we won and we announced that we won you know shortly after we told we got when we got the email

[00:39:05] It was first like keep a quiet until we announced it but that was only like a week

[00:39:11] And so as public knowledge as far as that went

[00:39:15] We did you know we had a contract with iHeart and you know had that reviewed by lawyer and everything but

[00:39:23] No real you know

[00:39:25] NDAs or anything like that if I think is all fairly standard stuff

[00:39:30] And as much as you want to talk about it, do you guys have ownership now and you just like they're just doing the marketing and the advertising or delight did they own it now?

[00:39:40] How does that work?

[00:39:41] So we do share ownership now

[00:39:47] It's actually three ways the competition this is kind of a weird part of it that I don't really mention much

[00:39:52] But the head judge of the competition was is Dan Patrick

[00:39:57] I don't know if you know who he is and all the SPN sports center guy

[00:40:02] Yeah, so the Dan Patrick show I guess in podcast forums on iHeart

[00:40:06] And so they do he was the head judge in the sponsor I guess with the competition

[00:40:11] And so like he owns a part of it now too as does iHeart and you know, so it's kind of a collaborative thing

[00:40:21] I'm not a lawyer. So I don't really know exactly how all of that works or whatever

[00:40:26] It's not like it's ours you can't do anything or whatever but

[00:40:32] We can't just go out and make a bunch of stuff under the hook or gate name now, you know, without their permission

[00:40:39] And they can't do it without our permission either, you know, so we're all working together

[00:40:43] Cool and they're uh, selling advertising I imagine

[00:40:49] What there's a split there, I'd also imagine all the shows the big shows that I've worked on there's always a split

[00:40:57] Cool man, so that yeah, and you're you've made money

[00:41:00] You're gonna make money or you made the initial deposit probably and then have you and you know if you're not comfortable

[00:41:07] It's okay, but I last time you told me you're still waiting on the advertising revenue to come in and so that's exciting right you've got to be

[00:41:15] Expecting a check. Yes, yes, so I'm still still waiting on that you know, I'm not sure what the reality is going to be because they did do a really big marketing campaign

[00:41:25] And I'm still waiting you know, I've heard stories about this like with

[00:41:30] You know, major like record labels and stuff like that the reporting for that stuff is infamously very, very slow

[00:41:38] And I'm getting a feeling maybe it's like that here right now we haven't actually gotten our first quarterly statement

[00:41:45] I'm told it should be around sometimes so I don't really know what the

[00:41:49] You know, details are going to be like that. What the actual expenses are

[00:41:54] I'm curious to find out

[00:41:56] We did get an advance

[00:41:59] You know like at the start of everything so we've gotten paid some

[00:42:04] But right now, I'm still a little bit in the dark and just kind of waiting for the details

[00:42:09] And you guys have plans to

[00:42:12] Well, you did mention you have plant or at least ideas that you and her would maybe collaborate on. Is there anything

[00:42:19] You could talk about or want to talk about hooker gateways in the future or like other shows

[00:42:25] I mean, is there any teasers you got for us?

[00:42:28] Well, I can I can tell you we are working on season two. We've got a plan for that and so we're excited to get that going

[00:42:37] It's all very early stages right now but we're excited to get that going

[00:42:41] We do have more stories, Lindsey and I

[00:42:45] Some of them not really I'm not really ready to talk about right now

[00:42:49] Mostly I'm just don't have the pitch in my head

[00:42:52] But I probably should have prepared something like that so I could have told you but we do have other stories that we're working on what's cool

[00:42:59] Is that like if you do do like

[00:43:02] Whether it's hooker gate part two or like another kind of big story

[00:43:07] You kind of now know like production wise like what worked what you shouldn't change and like you know

[00:43:13] It'll still take a long time but like at least you kind of know like oh, it'll be faster and easier

[00:43:20] If we do that you learn a lot. Oh, you probably learned so much

[00:43:23] Yes, honestly like there's so much I wish I had done differently and

[00:43:30] So much I'm excited to do differently, you know in the future

[00:43:34] So I did learn a lot and honestly I think most people learn best through experience you just gotta get in and do it

[00:43:42] Most people's experiences and obscurity and you know mine got kind of released to a whole lot of people

[00:43:47] So I'm a little higher pressure but I'm really excited to do more stuff

[00:43:54] Also what's really great is just having the the relationship you know with eye heart now like for the new ideas

[00:44:01] You know nothing's guaranteed sure, you know, but

[00:44:05] They hope they're there. Yeah, yeah, you got those email addresses and you never know you pitch them something or at least stay on their

[00:44:13] Stay cool with each other and that's how that kind of industry works man

[00:44:18] Yeah, yeah, so it's been it's been an amazing opportunity and you know still going you know continuing to be an amazing opportunity

[00:44:27] So and do you have any interest of getting on the mic yourself or do you prefer to be like behind the scenes

[00:44:34] I prefer to be behind the scenes. I've thought about doing you know my own podcast just because

[00:44:41] I have that DIY punk rock ethic of doing everything by myself. I mean, that's kind of why I have this home studio just kind of gravitate towards making music by myself rather than in a band

[00:44:55] So I like the idea of it. I don't really have the actual idea to try it with

[00:45:01] And if I'm being honest, I like being in the shadows more than being up front. I don't crave

[00:45:08] Fame or popularity

[00:45:10] I don't do much on social media and I always feel like I should do more to promote myself, but I'm not

[00:45:17] I'm not in an attention seeker, I guess

[00:45:22] So if I could just have it the way I want it. I would just be in my studio all the time writing music and no one would know who I am or

[00:45:29] Except for sending me the money for the music I'm writing you know, yeah, yeah. Do you know how many downloads it's gotten and like ballpark?

[00:45:38] Not completely so I have a

[00:45:41] An on the account that the you know sent me where I can see some of the downloads but there's some information that's missing

[00:45:51] So I'm like the

[00:45:54] We were asked to be able ask to be part of a true crime plus subscription service

[00:45:59] We're like the episodes with air a week early and add free and I don't have any numbers for that

[00:46:05] So I don't have any idea, you know what that's for and I think there's a couple other sources that don't get plugged into

[00:46:12] The reporting that I have so I don't actually know

[00:46:16] I'm thrilled with the numbers that we got it's the most people that's ever listened to my music or my creative work by far

[00:46:24] But you know true crime podcast the ceiling is really really high and so it feels a little intimidating because we haven't reached that ceiling

[00:46:34] You know the top true crime podcast or the top podcast in the world when they top the charts and I think on the top 200

[00:46:41] I think we got to like 128 or something as the highest we ever got. I'm not sure if we have cracked the top 100

[00:46:50] And that's overall not just true crime. We not just recum the whole. I'm right

[00:46:54] I don't know I've got screenshots somewhere. I'm not sure exactly how high we got on the overall charts

[00:47:01] But you know one day I was looking at I was like

[00:47:03] You know we're above date line we're above Glenn Beck or above you know Dana Carvey like you know this is kind of as kind of wild what's going on here

[00:47:11] Dude, I never thought about it the way you said it

[00:47:14] Which you just mentioned that's the most people that ever

[00:47:18] Listen to my music. That's an interesting way to look at it that yeah, it's the podcast as a whole

[00:47:23] But since you did the music it's like yeah these people actually heard in addition to hearing the podcast they heard my music which is kind of a cool way to

[00:47:32] To look at that I would have never thought about that. Yeah. Yeah. No. That's kind of what's been the

[00:47:38] The coolest thing for me about it. I mean, you know this it feels a little like cheating

[00:47:43] But you know the promos they played I made those it had my music and I added it to you know create those promos

[00:47:49] And they played those on the radio so like my music has played on the radio like you know

[00:47:54] It's a dream really to be honest. Yes, especially as like a young kid

[00:47:58] I mean now it probably doesn't feel as cool, but it's still fucking awesome

[00:48:03] Yeah, I mean you know they weren't playing my music for entertainment like they paid to put that on there

[00:48:08] But like yeah, it's it's really really cool. So I'm thrilled

[00:48:14] Yeah, do you like think about your younger self? I mean podcast didn't exist or maybe they did but like as a teenager if you're like, oh, like this when you're at this age

[00:48:22] This year this is good this

[00:48:25] Winning this doing the music is going to happen to you

[00:48:28] I mean it's pretty remarkable really man like it's a pretty cool thing great story like great show

[00:48:35] You know, I mean that's that's that's pretty impressive dude and it's just you know

[00:48:41] I know you don't like talking about it, but like pretty pretty rat so congrats again. How about your wife

[00:48:47] She was she like because you you probably had this idea

[00:48:51] With your friend and your wife's friend and she's probably like yeah, okay, like I know you love me play music that it

[00:48:58] We see like holy shit. Well, I mean I think I mean I think she was surprised you know by winning by a swimming and I think mainly just because

[00:49:09] You know it was a lot of people submitted for it. I don't know how many thousands of people submitted initially, but it was in the thousands and so when you

[00:49:18] Apply to something like that you don't really expect to win

[00:49:22] Although for when we started I for some reason I was just like man, we're gonna win this thing like I just kind of knew it just felt like

[00:49:28] It was such a good idea

[00:49:31] That I really I really felt that feel that which isn't normal for me, but

[00:49:38] It was still like kind of a shock when it all happened and we found out

[00:49:43] But isn't that interesting like you kind of felt it like some kind of energy in the universe or something and you're like oh, like we you're like I can do this

[00:49:52] We're gonna do this that's so

[00:49:55] That's crazy at that's cool. That's some weird the energy in the universe or God or whatever people want to call it

[00:50:02] Yeah